The Perfect Diet For Optimal Body Composition | Wolf’s Den

What is the perfect diet for body composition?

Learn the answers to your diet and bodybuilding pitfalls in this episode of the Wolfs Den with Mark Ottobre and the team at Enterprise Fitness as they teach you how to build muscle and be a better you.

We answer does the perfect diet exist? And if so, what does the perfect diet look like?

In this episode of Wolf’s Den with Mark Ottobre and the team at Enterprise Fitness, we talk calories, macros, food behaviours, health considerations, the guidelines for the perfect body composition, and more.

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Transcript From The Perfect Diet For Optimal Body Composition | Wolf’s Den

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Mark:                   Welcome to the show that punches you in the face with information. Welcome to Season 2, Episode 1 of the Wolf’s Den. My name is Mark Ottobre, and today I am joined by Liam Fitzgerald, and Reece Adams, two of our master coaches. Say hi folks, for those listening on YouTube.

Liam:                    Hey how you going guys?

Reece:                  Hey guys.

Mark:                   Excellent. So today’s topic for episode one, today’s show, is what is the perfect diet for optimal body composition? Not just what is the perfect diet, but that optimal body composition is a very important component. So I’ll just give you my initial ideas and we obviously can discuss this, because this is a very complex topic to discuss. But firstly, I don’t believe that we can have this conversation around the perfect diet for optimal body composition without talking about context versus content. Now firstly, I should explain to the listener and to the viewer what I mean by that.

Mark:                   Context is the thing that I say. Now if you go on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, podcast land, doesn’t matter where you go, there are a lot of folks giving out information, they’re information dispensers, as I call them, in which they might give some whatever advice it is, it might be go on a keto diet, it might be don’t have carbs after four o’clock, it might be get to bed before 9PM, it might be an if it fits your macro message, whatever the case may be, that’s the content. But I don’t really feel you can consider any content without also looking at the context it’s been set in. For example, not having carbs after 4PM might actually be the right advice for some people, but for others it might be horrible advice, because they might be training much later in the day and need a higher carbohydrate load and consumption.

Mark:                   So it’s very, I think, impossible to divorce context versus content, especially when it comes to our health and our optimal body composition, because there is a sharp edge, a razor, that this does balance on. The other thing that I would say though, there are absolute universals that we have to look at, and I think those universals, for me anyway, would be quality food. I think quality food is absolutely essential. I’m not in the camp of if it fits your macros, I never will be, because I have concern around our environment. I also have concern around the quality of food that people eat, and I think people are connected to food and food is just much more than just calories and macros. Food has a lot of meaning behind it, and obviously eating good food does assimilate differently in your body than just eating any old macro that you can find.

Mark:                   So I think that, as a universal to begin with, is probably where I’d begin, and also then people’s psychology of what they relate to food. But again, let’s get into this, Liam, what are your initial thoughts on what is the perfect diet for optimal body composition?

Liam:                    Yeah I totally agree with you there Mark. If we look at the statistics of say a timeline of the last five hundred years, and we have a look at the last say two hundred years, we got to look at what’s changed. Now I think the problem is a lot of people aren’t eating real food anymore, they’re eating food-like products. If we have a look at the statistics from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, that currently states that 67% of Australians are overweight or obese, with 27% or so of children overweight or obese. And I think if we have a look at what’s changed in the last two hundred years, what has changed?

Liam:                    The food, we’re eating a lot more processed foods, we’re eating a lot of fake foods. We’re not really eating-

Reece:                  Food products-

Liam:                    Food products. We’re not really eating-

Reece:                  Food-

Liam:                    Food, real food.

Reece:                  Food that’s made in a lab. More than it’s grown.

Liam:                    Correct, yeah. And I remember one time when I walked in here a couple… a long time ago, Mark said to me “Look, we’re talking about anything that’d been hunted, gathered, piked or fished”, and I think that really resonated with me back then, when I was walking around outside and I was seeing a lot of people overweight, and I was thinking wow, what’s going on really, really what is going on? And when I really look at what’s changed, I think that is what’s changed, the food products?

Mark:                   So just on that, the way I frame it is that a healthy person will look good, but there are lots of people who look good that aren’t healthy. Reece, what are your thoughts initially on this topic?

Reece:                  It’s one of those things where we got to look at where does food fit in. Because what we have is, like if we look at it from a physiological point of view, we have atoms. Atoms is what makes up basically everything around us, and then we have molecules, and then we have macro-molecules. This is where food fits in. And above this, we have ourselves, so it’s influencing ourselves, what we eat. So if we’re talking about the quality of food, 100% the food quality makes a difference, because it’s affecting our cells. And our cells affect our tissues, and our tissues affect our organs. And then from an organ level, we have us as an organism, so 100% food is basically the number one place to start, if we’re going to look at the health of an individual.

Mark:                   Liam you said something pretty good that I used to go through almost with every client that came in, and that was, you guys would have seen this a hundred times from me, but it’s the football field analogy, and for those who haven’t seen this, what I would do is I’d draw a big football field on the piece of paper for the client, say “This is a football field, what it represents is the start of human… So the start of the football field is the start of human history, and the end of the football field is present day, 2019. And if we walk from one end of the football field to the other, that represents the whole timeline, so how long has the human genome been on the planet?”

Mark:                   People will argue this, some people say I’ve heard 25 million years, which a lot of people think that’s a ridiculous notion and homo sapiens simply haven’t been on the planet that long. Some people say three to five million years, look we can call it a million years, it doesn’t really matter, the length exactly. But what does matter is if we look at that in the context of a spectrum and of a time rather, and we divide that football field up into let’s say five equal parts, right? So we have let’s call it five million years, because it’s just easier with numbers. You’ve got one million, two million, three million, four million, five million right?

Mark:                   The goal square for AFL football, that goal square, which is very small in comparison to the whole football field, that only represents the last 10,000 years. So when you think about that, last 10,000 years from a nutritional perspective, what’s happened, well we introduced grains into our diet, and farming, agriculture, which was a very much needed thing to happen, for us to domesticate our food supply and have control over the seasons. So with that, there’s… Everything has a double edged sword, there’s cons and there’s pros to it, but even more interesting if we just picked up one blade of grass from that football field, and we looked at it in the context of five million years, just that one blade of grass, that represents the last 100 years of food evolution, or as I like to say, food devolution, in the sense that we traded in food for food products.

Mark:                   The rest of the time, that other 99% of the football field, the other five million years, mostly we’ve been eating things that are hunted, fished, gathered and plucked, that was really cute, you guys both drank at the same time and put it down almost at the same time. That was really cute. But back to my point, if you look at that, the blade of grass, it’s only the last hundred years. What have we been doing? But if you look at it in this context, we do things now that physiologically abnormal, that are socially normal, because of our social constructs, when really if you look at the way humans, I believe, are meant to eat, a lot of what we do today, or people out there do today, is they do physiologically abnormal things, but socially normal, if that makes sense?

Mark:                   So we really need to get back to what is physiologically normal for our bodies, and I always relate it to like, what is the factory operated setting, or what is the factory operated battery for a particular appliance, and that’s going to sync, so for example if you’ve got an iPhone, you’re not going to put in a Samsung battery, because even though it’s a battery source, it can still power the iPhone, it’s not going to power the iPhone as well as what if you got a proper iPhone battery right? I’m not even sure they connect, but it’s still a battery if you understand. So there are many foods that we can eat, gluten, soy, commercialized dairy. We can consume them as caloric foods that are going to fuel us, it’s still a battery source, but it’s not going to sync with our bodies like the food of say, yesteryear, or the last eras that’s been wholesomely grown, if that makes sense.

Liam:                    Yes, so I personally believe that there are really no wrong foods, there are wrong portion sizes. But of course, going back on that, there is typical foods that no one should eat like gluten, because if affects the brain and the gut. The way I approach-

Mark:                   Well then there are wrong foods then-

Liam:                    Yeah, I think some people can get away with eating gluten, but I personally wouldn’t recommend it, and the people that I see-

Mark:                   Because the problem with nutrition right, is that there’s really people who teach nutrition I would say, is really twofold, there’s two ends of the spectrum. One is it’s all about hormones, the other is it’s all about calories. Where I think what we try and get at is, look they’re both right, you need to be concerned about calories, and you also need to be concerned with what’s happening from a hormone level, but you’re saying there’s no wrong food, so that would therefore indicate that you’re more on the side of calories in, calories out?

Liam:                    Yeah, well I’m a physique coach, that’s what I do. Yeah, definitely, I don’t want to see anyone take out a whole range of micronutrients, so things like fruit, I like to have fruit in my plans. I like to get people eating as healthy as possible, because the way I eat is very much the way my clients eat. If I did other ways, I would be lying to my clients, so I think the way… yeah, I agree that there are wrong foods that I wouldn’t eat, but I’m not saying that everyone in the world should not have gluten-

Reece:                  What’s your thoughts on Wicked Sisters, Liam?

Liam:                    Wicked sisters has some-

Mark:                   What’s Wicked Sisters?

Liam:                    It’s like a rice pudding. It’s milk powdered dairy product that I have post-workout sometimes. But-

Reece:                  Everything in context?

Liam:                    Look if I was getting ready for a show or something, and I’m trying to get to that leanest percent body fat that I have, would I be having Wicked Sisters? Absolutely not.

Mark:                   Never heard of Wicked Sisters.

Liam:                    You should try one. They’ll be delicious-

Mark:                   Are they glutenous? Are they dairy-ous?

Liam:                    They’re gluten free, but they contain dairy.

Mark:                   See I can actually have gluten, but dairy is no good for me.

Liam:                    Point proven.

Mark:                   So let’s get back to that though. You said if you were competing, the topic here today is what is the perfect diet for body composition? And I mean even that needs to be quantified, as what do you mean body composition? Are we talking 1% shredded lean, and I’d like to hear your thoughts on what are the differences between someone who just wants to look good versus someone who wants to be dick skin lean?

Liam:                    Yeah, okay. There’s a lot of things that go into this. What I’m looking at with people is, one, me personally I prefer higher carbohydrates. Just for purely energy upward. I’m slightly lower fats, and I utilize the calories with carbohydrates, and I obviously set protein per body weight depending on goal. So for example, if I was training an athlete, yes they would have higher protein. If I was training a competitor, they would have around two grams per body weight. If I was training someone who’s a complete beginner that’s eating maybe one or two meals, I would be looking at that approach completely different to how I look at my competitors.

Liam:                    For example, I’m trying to build my people up, not bring them down. If that makes sense.

Mark:                   So one thing you said there though, is you said that’s what you like to do. Is that also what you like to do, when you say you like to do, are you saying you like to do that personally? Or are you saying you like to do that as a coach?

Liam:                    Yeah, absolutely.

Mark:                   Absolutely, which one?

Liam:                    Well, no. Well I lead by what I do. So what I do is what my clients do. And I’ve been lean… Very few… A lot of times, I’ve got a lot of results for my clients, the more structured I am, the more easier that I make it, the more simple that I make it, the better the results.

Mark:                   So then the question I have for that is that, let’s introduce the meso of carb types versus fat types right? Is that just not applicable, or people just use that as a label to eat certain foods?

Liam:                    Yeah, it’s… just with my body type, I know that I… a typical meso, endo kind, I gain weight very easy. I’ve got a decent amount of muscle. I find that I sit comfortably having a couple of fat meals, couple of carb meals, and I can kind of maintain my own weight. When I start to decrease the carbohydrates, I start to get a little bit leaner.

Mark:                   But you’re not marrying that exact… you said you’re a meso type, but a lot of your clients coming to you wouldn’t necessarily be meso types?

Liam:                    I think the majority that I get would be in between-

Mark:                   So you’re saying it just so happens that there’s… But you’ve had a lot of… Like there was one transformation, an older guy, that you showed me yesterday, that he cried about, and he wasn’t…He’d never trained before. We would call him endo for sure, but he was endo, unathletic, never trained.

Liam:                    Yeah, yeah. And this is where you were talking about before, with your context. This is all person dependent, so I’ve had a couple females leading up into competitions, that were eating three thousand plus odd calories, and they were just burning it up. Me for example, I’m on the other end of the spectrum, I’m always pretty low.

Mark:                   That’s because you don’t train hard enough.

Liam:                    That’s because I don’t train hard enough.

Reece:                  Must be his bench press technique.

Liam:                    My bench press is better than Mark’s, by the way.

Mark:                   No.

Liam:                    Yeah, so I think it’s… and this is the hard thing, people come into the gym for 12 weeks and they expect to get these awesome transformations, which we do deliver a lot. The problem is we want to learn about their body. We want to help them get the best results possible, knowing that body and educating them, so they can continue on getting the right results.

Mark:                   Just an idea on that, and we can throw to Reece in a sec, but I always say, and you’ve heard me say this heaps of times Reece, is that one diet doesn’t fit all, absolutely doesn’t fit all, but for an optimal diet, you need to start somewhere. So one diet does… Most of the time, it starts you off, it starts most people off, as a general broad brush, but from that, it’s not going to fit everyone. You need to prune it, almost like a gardener, or add things to it and find out what… Does this person need more carbs, does this person need more fat, or you’ve done too much protein than the average person for whatever reason, but Reece, what are your thoughts from what’s been said?

Reece:                  What’s been said? Yeah definitely you’re not going to get… there’s not a diet that fits everyone, and like you said, you’re going to have to mold it based on… This is where you want to assess, and when you’re assessing, then you can make those changes.

Mark:                   Unlike Liam though, you do use carb types and fat types?

Reece:                  I do tend to…

Mark:                   Because I do, I do.

Reece:                  Yeah, so some people-

Liam:                    Well use the tools you’ve got-

Reece:                  I might give higher fats, but it really depends on the type of people that you have coming to you, and I totally agree with Liam, how you approach a competitor is going to be very different to how you approach the everyday person, because competitors not expecting to sustain their result, whereas when you get a lifestyle client, they are expecting to sustain it-

Mark:                   Well let’s actually talk about that. A competitor’s not expecting, so I actually have felt sometimes training competitors, and you get them super lean, and then they go out and they have whatever they have, and we know what’s going to happen from doing that, they’re going to hold water, they’re going to smooth over, they’re going to not be dick skin lean, it’s fact. But I don’t know, do you guys feel that sometimes people do actually expect that they’re going to walk out and not… I don’t want to say ruin, because it’s not really ruining their physique, normalizing their physiques.

Mark:                   They’ve worked so hard, all of us have competed, worked so hard to get into that single body fat digit, but then you have that one meal and boom the dream’s over kind of thing, and that’s just the way it is right?

Reece:                  I think it depends on the person. Some people can sustain a much leaner level than another person. Janet for instance, I think she sustains her-

Liam:                    That’s time as well-

Reece:                  Correct.

Mark:                   And it’s also hard work too.

Reece:                  Hard work, and also sacrifice. She makes a lot of sacrifices that like, Liam over here with his Wicked Sisters, he just wouldn’t make. In the off season, he doesn’t just want to give that up, which is totally fine. But it’s just accepting it is what it is.

Liam:                    Yeah, I also experiment with myself as well, so I’ve tried… the heaviest I’ve been is around 87 kilos-

Reece:                  He experiments with himself.

Liam:                    The heaviest I’ve-

Reece:                  Let’s not get into that last-

Liam:                    I’ve tried to bulk up- [crosstalk 00:16:40]

Reece:                  Thanks for the visual-

Liam:                    Pretty hard. And then I’ve kind of dieted back down to under 70 kilos, which is where I competed at last year. This year, I’m staying at around 77 kilos. What I have found for my goal is my body type, I actually do better when I’m actually trying to increase the calories a little bit more. And the way I puritise my nutrition is I actually do it in steps. Almost like the calorie amount that Mark talks about. So for me, myself, I’ve found that a big off season where I do get a little bit soft and a little bit fluffy, even though I personally don’t like it as much, works better for me.

Mark:                   Can you go into those steps Liam, like what you’re doing currently?

Liam:                    Yeah, I just wanted to touch another point as well. So I bring up two of my old clients, Kim and Shannon. Shannon was a guy who was very, very overweight. I dieted him down very hard, I educated him with the right tools, he walks around his new self, he’s only like four or five kilos up from stage weight. So-

Mark:                   So let’s just put it in context, he was about a hundred kilos, you got him down to 80 kilos-

Liam:                    Down to 80 kilos. He walks around at like 85 now, he’s very, very lean, and I’m like wow this guy’s actually sustained this very, very well. I thought there was going to be a little bit more rebounding, I thought he was going to take a couple steps back because I dieted him very hard in a smaller amount of time than I’d normally like to-

Mark:                   The 28 weeks right?

Reece:                  That was less than 28-

Mark:                   16 weeks?

Reece:                  It was 28 kilos that he lost.

Mark:                   It was 28 kilos, that’s why I kept thinking it was 28 weeks.

Liam:                    Kim for example, her body type I would say was more endo. She now walks around a lot leaner as well. And these are people that I’ve educated the right way to eat, and they’ve done that. So I believe you can change someone’s physique, but I think competitors, that are getting around 3, 4, 10%, wherever they are, they’re going to come back up to a healthy… Or they should come back up to a healthy body fat at least.

Mark:                   So then one of the questions I suppose in this discussion, that we should actually probably talk about, is what is optimal body composition? Like it’s certainly not… If we look at things as a bell curve, I feel at least, we think of things as a bell curve, you know. This is, not enough, this is, optimal point, this is too much… If we look at the… And this is often, you know, in Instagram land, this isn’t the way it’s thought of, but it’s the truth, is that you know, you don’t want to be overweight, you don’t want to be fat, right? Like you… 28% body fat, whatever. You want that optimal range, and that optimal range is going to be dependent on the person. You know for me, it might be let’s say 10%, 12%, for you it might be 11%, for you it might be 8%, right? As what your optimal kind of look and health and strength and all around performance.

Mark:                   But let’s say we go over that, Reece gets to you know, 5%, doing a photo shoot, you get to 3%, I get to 4%, we’re on the other side of the bell curve right now. Where we’re too lean to be healthy, although people will look at that, as that is what is optimal body composition. And, I mean, it’s almost a very foolish premise, because at one hand, it is kinda, as a photo, you would say, “That is optimal body composition.” But the reality of, it’s not actually optimal on the side of health. And this is a thing that people do, is they divorce health from body composition, where, obviously if you’re doing a comp, like IFBB, WBFF, whatever it may be, then you are going to divorce health from body composition. And you kind of have to do that if you want to reach a higher level. But at the same time, for folks walking around, they need to realize that the photos they see on Instagram of people who’ve actually made that decision to divorce the two, and what they need to do, come back, if they’re going to have long lasting longevity, doing this as a gym athlete, so to speak, or a gym junkie so to speak. You need to marry health and body composition back.

Mark:                   So what would be, in your opinion, a body fat percentage, and I know this is a loaded question, but what is an optimal body fat percentage for someone who’s looking more for optimal body composition?

Liam:                    Yeah. I mean again, this is person dependent. Person dependent on their muscle mass, their height, things like that, but, I’d say for guys, maybe between 10 and 15%, and say girls, females, around 15%.

Reece:                  I think partially it depends on how they’re feeling, and also what their bloods look like as well. Like if someone is super lean, and has impeccable bloods, and they feel fantastic, who am I to tell them that that’s not optimal?

Liam:                    Yeah. And different body types like…

Mark:                   And you know, good point, Reece, bringing up the bloods. Because that’s… That’s a side of health that people often, they don’t consider. Like it’s actually what do your bloods look like? Because that is a very objective marker to say… And just, you know for the purposes of this video, I do need to make mention, when I do talk about bloods, is that there’s functional norms, and there’s doctor norms. And doctor norms are basically, you go into your GP, you get your labs done, and it’s based on what everyone else is who goes into doctors. Sick people. All right?

Mark:                   So, the aggregate score of everyone’s bloods over, you know, the course of millennia, has you know, gone down, the standard of health, the standard of what bloods actually should be, and you see these. So an example I always give is vitamin D. In 2011, when we… I used to look at blood work on the doctors’ ranges. It would be 80 to 120 as the normal range of vitamin D. Now, 2019, if you go into the doctors here in Australia, well number one, the doctor probably won’t even allow you to do vitamin D, unless you pay a little extra money, but it’s classified on the blood work now, is as long as you’re above 50 IUs, you don’t have a deficiency. Now that might be true, but that is no way, in terms of what is optimal from a functional perspective, of what blood work should be. Blood really, your vitamin D should be up at around at least, if I say 80 out loud, the functional medicine doctors would probably be like, “Dude, that’s way too low.” It really probably needs to be around 120, 150. I know there’s people like, Dr. Bruce Jones, who I had one years back, he said to me around 150 to 200 is what he would look at, in terms of what optimal… And Dr. Avni Sali, who founded the National Institute of Integrative Medicine here in Melbourne, he said around 150 to 200 is what they look for with vitamin D as well. So, good point on the vitamin D.

Reece:                  On the vitamin D.

Mark:                   Yeah.

Reece:                  Was mine on the vitamin D? Or was yours on the vitamin D?

Mark:                   Mine was… That was your point on the bloods, but you got me on a rant about bloods.

Reece:                  I did get you on a rant.

Mark:                   So, that’s good to tie it back in.

Liam:                    Yeah. I’ve been finding a lot of people have been coming in because of Instagram, because of the people that are staying ridiculously lean year round, and some people just aren’t meant to be that lean. And what’s happening is that, under-eating so much to an extent that they’re not in good shape, they’re not lifting what they should be lifting, they’re not moving like they should. And when I look at their nutrition and I try to educate them on it, or help them, and I talk about, you know, reintroducing more foods, or, you know. If they’re on, say 1,200 calories, there’s no real way to go from there. So, and I talk to them about bringing up their food, and then I start to slowly bring it up, but their weight slowly starts to increase as well, and they start to panic. And this is what I think is the problem, because when people under-eat for so long, you know the body goes into survival mode. So, things start to down regulate. And then all of a sudden, how they used to feel, they kind of forget, because they’ve been like this for so long, and this is the new normal for them. And that’s probably one of the hardest things-

Mark:                   Yeah because they’ll say, “That’s a lot of food.”

Liam:                    Yes.

Mark:                   So would we agree on that, that the optimal diet for body composition is actually a diet that is going to be almost a game of what people can get away with, in the sense that, if you can get, we talk about the calorie amounts and just to explain that, it’s the idea of bringing people’s calories up to the highest point where they maintain. So let’s say for example your calories at the moment might be at 2,000, all right? And you might be able to maintain, your body fat is let’s say, 15%, and you’re at 80 kilos. And if we can bring that up to say, 3,000, or 4,000. Let’s just say 4,000 in this case, and you’re still, you know 15% body fat, and you’re still 80 kilos, then that is much more favorable than someone who is 80 kilos and 10% body fat only eating 2,000 calories.

Mark:                   Because the analogy that I always like to give, is that of a Prius, or a smart car, that doesn’t really use much fuel at all, I think the Prius is probably the best way, because it’s very fuel efficient, and you only have to fill up once every so often, let’s say in this case, once every two months, compared to a V12 Maserati, well we know the V12 Maserati is going to eat a lot more fuel than the Prius. But when it comes to physiology, you want to be the Maserati every day of the week, from the perspective of cellular turnover, we want to be turning over our bodies essentially, our building parts, as fast as possible. Metabolically, then it’d actually be like the Prius who’s holding on, the turnover rate… The person who’s holding on is the person at the Alzheimer’s clinic, the old folks. The old folks aren’t… They’re the Prius. You want to be the V8.

Mark:                   If you can have, if you can consume 4,000 calories a day and still be 80 kilos, and still only be 15% body fat, then the [inaudible 00:25:44] body, from a perspective of what is optimal for body composition, that is going to be far more optimal. And the reason why, I would say, is because from that 4,000, if we cut that down to let’s say 3,800, or 3,700, right? You’re going to get a change. You’ll probably get to 14% body fat just from, you know, slicing off 300 calories. But if you’re 2,000 and you slice off let’s say, you know, 200, or even 400 calories, in this case, you’re not going to get the same result. Yeah? So, it’s highly important that, I think when we’re talking about this topic of what is the diet for optimal body composition, I think we all agree, and we all say that it’s the diet actually of people including more food than they think. Not less, food. And I don’t know about you guys, you’re welcome to share your thoughts, but, every time I’ve had a client for a physique change, and doing a body transformation, is it’s they’ve always said to me, “This is way more food than I thought. Like you sure I’m not going to get fat eating this?”

Reece:                  Yeah, I agree, Mark, because, ultimately it’s about performance as well, because if we’re talking body composition, we’re not just looking for weight loss, we’re looking for an optimal amount of muscle, and also we want fat loss, not just weight loss. So therefore, we want our clients to eat as much as possible, in order to perform and to recover, as well.

Mark:                   So optimal body composition means that they have to be able to train. Is that what you’re saying?

Reece:                  And train well, train at their best, because ultimately we’re trying to stress their physiology, which will only create a greater stress than it’s had put on it before. Because that’s the stimulus that causes their bodies to change, isn’t it?

Mark:                   So when we talk about this topic, what is the optimal diet for body composition, then we’re also saying that the optimal diet, and this is something interesting, that actually, it, in a way, has to be assumed that the optimal body composition, someone would be training for optimum body composition. You can’t just say, “I want to be in optimal body composition.” Without training. I think that’s a fair absolute that we can all agree on and say…

Reece:                  I do agree, I do agree, but I think that it depends on the individual, because someone’s idea of optimal body composition might be the look of a runway model.

Mark:                   That’s true.

Reece:                  So, I think that we’re generalizing in the sense that, like, we personally gravitate to more muscle, because that’s just how we live our lives. And that’s typically the clientele that we deal with. We have had a runway model come in here before…

Mark:                   Had a few runway models come in.

Reece:                  Yeah.

Mark:                   Yeah, we’ve had a few runway models come in, and we’ve worked with them pretty well, I think.

Reece:                  But their training is a little bit different. They’re still doing with weights, but…

Mark:                   More gymnastics, sporty style, more mobility. Because they don’t, they don’t want to get big. I know James has actually had a few of them, yeah, good old James.

Reece:                  So the training volume that they deal within, and also the intensity at which they do their training is a little bit different.

Liam:                    So Reece, how would you, or Mark, both of you guys, how would you difference your plans from a… Your starting plans from a competitors, to a general pop. How would you go about the difference between the two?

Mark:                   Great question.

Reece:                  Do you want to go first?

Liam:                    Maybe Mark will do general pop, you’ll do competitors?

Reece:                  [crosstalk 00:28:42] I’ll do both.

Mark:                   We need to do both [inaudible 00:28:44] need to get the ideas of how we would do it differently. So, for me, I always look at a diet where someone’s going to comply. And I don’t necessarily treat a competitor differently than the way I would treat a general pop. To be perfectly frank with you, and the reason is, is I want to see a level of compliance, and what they’re going to do, and usually a competitor, the only difference that I’m really dealing with, is that the competitor has a high level of compliance.

Liam:                    Let me just recap for you there, Mark said the diet that the client is most likely to stick to is the one that’s going to work. So there’s no point if I write Reece a diet, and Reece is terribly following diets, if he’s not following it.

Mark:                   He’s unbelievable at following diets. Unbelievable. Couldn’t be any better.

Liam:                    But yeah, like if I give something to someone that they’re absolutely not going to follow, and some people are at such a bad starting point that, to get their buy in to get some results, I might need to start off at the bottom of the pile. And if that means I’m only, as Mark says working on one meal at a time, you know, I personally don’t like doing that, because I try to get the best result-

Mark:                   In the quickest amount of time.

Liam:                    In the quickest amount of time, but there are people that need to do that. And-

Mark:                   You know, just on that, Liam, there’s been a lot of people talk about our training for the gen pop. Well the truth is, you know, I’ve been PTing since 2006, and I’ve seen a fuckload of gen pop clients. And I know, if I know one thing, I know how to get results for gen pop clients. And, I can tell you one thing, is, what I see overused today in personal training is macros and calories for gen pop clients.

Mark:                   Yes, you can use it for personal training, you can use it for competitors, you can use it for people who are a little bit more interested in what they’re doing, but as it says, the person at the office, they don’t give a fuck about calories and macros and shit, so where I start in terms of to answer part of your question, is where I always start, is, let’s look at actually what you’re doing. Like, can you keep for me a diet log. Oh I don’t even like to call it a diet log. I like to call it a self reflection log. Can you keep for me a self reflection log of what actually, what you’re doing, what you’re consuming, what time you wake up, when you go to the toilet, how you feel, how you relate to food? I want to know about you.

Mark:                   And the more information I can know about you, the more I can guide and coach you, and if I don’t know that information, then I’m throwing darts on a dartboard blindfolded like a blind man in a dark room. It’s not going to work, right? I need… The more information I can know about my client, and that’s why I put so much emphasis early on for new clients that this is their new lifestyle, that I need to see, you know at least three days, and usually I ask for another three days of what they’re actually doing over the course of the week, just so I can understand, okay this is how this person wakes up. This is how this person puts on their shoes, this is what this person does, okay.

Mark:                   Now from this information, I might make one change that might change everything. And that one change might be, you know what? No more soft drink, let’s say for example. Instead of soft drink, you’re going to start drinking green tea or cacao at night. And that works as an appetite suppressant. So they start to make more choices, not because hey, look I’ve given you this macro plan, you better fucking follow it, but rather that I’m now working on a level of behaviors, of who they are as a person and they start to see, you know eating at that café seven days a week and getting all my meals, you know, someone to make for me, isn’t really what’s going to get me my result.

Mark:                   So yeah, I mean if I’m working with a gen popper as you said, I’m usually going to start on the first meal, always. Which is obviously breakfast. Because I believe that it sets people up for the course of the day. So, if it’s gen pop, I’m going to look at their breakfast, I’m going to work on their breakfast first, usually I’m a big believer in a high protein breakfast. So it’s going to be something like eggs, if they’re willing to do meat they can do meat, but I’m not absolute where they have to have the meat in that breakfast or anything like this-

Liam:                    Do you like calling it breakfast, lunch, and dinner, Mark?

Mark:                   Well I’ll let you explain, that’s your point right? So, breakfast lunch and dinner, I still, you know, it’s meal one, meal two, meal three. I get that in terms of working with people, but I think as humans we have an affinity to these words, so yeah, I still call it breakfast, because breakfast comes from the idea of breaking the fast, right? Which you’ve been in for eight hours when you sleep, so yeah. I mean that’s… Start on meal one. Look, if it’s a competitor, I’ll look at what they’re currently doing as well. That doesn’t change.

Mark:                   I do believe that nutrition is, for body composition at least, is all about contrast. And what I mean by contrast is it’s what are you doing now, and what improvements can we make to make what you’re doing… To give you a better outcome? And then you need to measure. This is why you need to be doing skin folds on a regular basis. On a weekly basis, to ensure that the advice that you’ve given and the guidance that you’ve given, is actually getting a result. Because you know, I’ve given people what I thought in my head, is the right advice, and then a week later, two weeks later, they haven’t lost any weight. Well hang on, this is not the right advice then. It’s not. Because they’re not going the direction that we planned.

Mark:                   So I’m not sure if that answers the complete question, because it’s kind of a big question to answer in terms of a gen pop, or competitor, but you know, you can quote me for saying this because I’ve said it to you both multiple times, is that comp prep is really just glorified fat loss that you’ve done for a little longer. You know? So someone want to lose 12 kilos, they might do it in 12 weeks, you know let’s say for example. But to be on stage, they need to lose 17 kilos. So guess what? They do it for five more weeks, And they might lose the five kilos to get them to that level. So yeah, to me comp rep is glorified fat loss, having enough muscle on your frame, depending again on the division, whether you’re competing bikini, fitness, bodybuilding, whatever. Obviously if it’s bodybuilding, you’re going to be a lot bigger, right? Reece [inaudible 00:34:00]?

Reece:                  Yeah and I agree with that, but just to touch on, from a meals perspective, what I find is breakfast, lunch, dinner? People tend to have a certain connotation of what breakfast should look like. What lunch should look like. What dinner should look like.

Mark:                   Kellogg’s Corn Flakes.

Reece:                  Yeah. So, I try to get them out of that frame of mind and just say, “Look, this is your first meal.” Because people often say to me, “What do you have for breakfast?” And, in my head it’s like, “Oh, that’s meal one.” So, it’s not really that different from meal two, meal three. They’re all quite similar, in the sense that I’m going to, you know, have some protein with all my meals. And then the fats the cards is going to divvy up depending on what I’m trying to achieve.

Mark:                   Though let’s be real, he’s a different human ,though.

Liam:                    Yeah I don’t think everyone can follow like your meals are horrendous. I’m just pointing out [crosstalk 00:34:46].

Mark:                   Horrendous. Horrendous. Your meals are horrendous.

Liam:                    You will blend the chicken, put some vegetables in there, and eat it if you’re short on time. The average person isn’t going to do that. So, I mean…

Mark:                   The average Mark won’t do that.

Liam:                    Well you definitely might to that. Mark is very picky on his food as well.

Mark:                   I’m very picky.

Liam:                    Yeah I… So that’s-

Reece:                  Have you ever blended a meal before, Liam?

Liam:                    No, I don’t think I could do that.

Reece:                  I did it when I had my wisdom teeth out as well, worked-

Mark:                   What does it actually taste like, blending your food? So, we’ve got to describe this, right? So Reece, you have what, six meals a day?

Reece:                  Five.

Mark:                   Five meals a day. And do you usually [crosstalk 00:35:16].

Liam:                    And do you [crosstalk 00:35:17] after one of them?

Mark:                   They usually look like white rice, well 180 grams of white rice?

Reece:                  Yes, white rice-

Liam:                    A bit of frozen veggies, a bit of mince.

Reece:                  What I do, [inaudible 00:35:24] rice and it’s 660 over three days of raw rice.

Mark:                   660 raw rice over three days. And then-

Reece:                  220 over- [crosstalk 00:35:28]

Mark:                   And then you don’t weigh your veggies, you just put a bit of frozen veg in?

Reece:                  Yeah.

Mark:                   Yeah, and then the meat’s usually mince, chicken mince?

Reece:                  Chicken mince or beef mince.

Mark:                   And then you have that four times a day?

Reece:                  Correct.

Mark:                   And then what’s the other meal?

Liam:                    He has the rice cakes and jam. Tell us about that?

Mark:                   Is that a meal? Is the rice cakes and jam a meal?

Reece:                  No they kind of like, slot in depending on where I’m training. So I’ll have the rice cakes with a meal, and then I’ll put some jam and some peanut butter on them before I train.

Mark:                   So you have the rice, the mince, and the veggies five times a day?

Reece:                  No, the rice, mince, and veggies is four times a day. And then the fifth meal is usually two eggs, and I chuck a heap of fruit in there, 220 grams of banana, 175 grams of pineapple, 100 grams of mango, 75 grams of blueberries, 26 grams maple syrup…

Mark:                   26 grams of maple syrup, did you just say?

Reece:                  Yeah.

Mark:                   That’s a very odd number.

Reece:                  It’s just what it worked out to be.

Liam:                    Why not 65 grams?

Mark:                   Because macros.

Liam:                    I’m just kidding, [inaudible 00:36:20].

Reece:                  Macros. And then I’ll put some cinnamon in there, because you know, glucose control. And then I’ll blend it up.

Liam:                    It’s not a thing.

Mark:                   You blend that up? What does it taste like?

Reece:                  Yeah, like a smoothie.

Mark:                   That would be pretty nice. That fruit. Well you’re mixing protein with the fruit?

Reece:                  The eggs. They’re just raw eggs. They just go in there.

Mark:                   Gonna make it a bit thick, right?

Reece:                  It’s not to make it thick, it just because [crosstalk 00:36:40].

Liam:                    Well you could, [inaudible 00:36:40] thick you just put avocado in it.

Reece:                  It’s just because macros. It fits the macros.

Mark:                   It fits the macros. Does it actually taste nice? Or does it taste real weird?

Reece:                  No it actually tastes delicious.

Mark:                   Yeah.

Liam:                    People do put raw eggs in smoothies. [crosstalk 00:36:50]

Mark:                   I’ve got a question though. How long have you been doing? So, just for the viewer, right? I’m a very much like, I’m very picky about what I eat, I’m very much into you know, has to be organic, and has to be cooked for this amount of hours, and blah, blah, blah, blah. Reece, is the opposite of that. He’s just like pure macros. So if the cardboard had the right macros in it, he would eat the cardboard. But, thankfully that cardboard doesn’t have the macros, so he doesn’t eat it. But, if you look at Reece’s food, [crosstalk 00:37:15] literally, it’s white rice. It’s disgusting, it’s in Chinese containers, it’s white rice, that’s probably like 4, 5 days old, the chicken… I don’t know how you cook it. But, it’s… I hate frozen vegetables. Hate frozen vegetables. They taste disgusting. [crosstalk 00:37:31]

Reece:                  Well I do the beef on an electric fry pan, and then I do the chicken in a fry pan on the stove.

Mark:                   And so, but how long have you been following this diet? Because it just looks to me tasteless.

Liam:                    Nah, he changes his calories.

Reece:                  Probably 3, 4 months? But I’ve just been adding in extra food.

Mark:                   Yeah.

Liam:                    So he’s been building his calories up. [crosstalk 00:37:46]

Reece:                  And to answer your question before, about what does the blended food taste like? It taste like Weetabix the other day. I just recently had tonsillitis, so I couldn’t swallow. So, getting my food in through blending, it was the best option because- [crosstalk 00:37:59]

Mark:                   This is a man dedicated to his macros.

Liam:                    Have you tried the gluten free Weetabix?

Mark:                   This is a man dedicated to his macros.

Reece:                  Eventually it got the better of me and I couldn’t actually get all my food in. And the result of that was, obviously by the end of the week, I lost 2.8 kilos. Which is frustrating, because it took me 19 weeks to put on one and half kilos, so… Now I’m in a negative, and I’m trying to come back from that.

Mark:                   Well, you just need to train harder.

Reece:                  Yeah, but at the moment, just getting the food in is-

Mark:                   So with your macro plan, because this is also a very good conversation, in terms of the topic, right? What is the perfect diet for optimal body composition. I’ve said that like seven times during this interview. But, anyway.

Reece:                  But that’s what it’s about.

Mark:                   It’s what it’s about, I’ve gotta come back to it. I’ve gotta come back to the interview. Just make sure you talk into that, Reece. Because we’re getting a cue from the manager that we’re not talking into the audio enough. But back to it. You’ve got these people who are certainly like you, so there’s people, I feel like we’ve got quite a good balance on the panel today, in that you’ve got people like me, who’s just, they want more of a behavioral approach to food, than what are the foods that I should be eating, and they want to enjoy their food. Whereas they’ve got people like you, that’s just… Computers, and probably were robots in former lives, or maybe in your next life you will be an Excel document.

Reece:                  What an aspiration.

Liam:                    That’s an improvement.

Mark:                   Well… Anyway. The point that I’m getting at, is to me it just seems to bland and boring and tasteless, and…

Liam:                    Like, where am I?

Mark:                   I think you’re a little bit of a mix. Yeah, yeah.

Liam:                    Yeah. So I take what’s good out of both of you guys and put it into my own formula really.

Reece:                  Well, I personally see myself as being objective, Mark, because it’s like, by eating this, where is it going to take me? And, that’s what drives me to eat [crosstalk 00:39:45].

Mark:                   But my actual question was, like let’s say for example you wanted to pretty up your food. Make a it a little bit more delicious or you wanted something different. Like you go and get exact, go into the macro plan.

Liam:                    I think he could do that. I think it’s more of a time thing, because I always buy organic meats.

Mark:                   I didn’t know he had to answer for you.

Liam:                    No, I’m setting up for you.

Reece:                  Thank you, Liam, go for it.

Liam:                    Well I always buy organic meats, heat treated not… So he could make better food, if he spent more time on it. But, it’s not-

Reece:                  I get 5% beef.

Liam:                    Yeah, it’s not like it’s a priority for him.

Mark:                   5% beef, you mean your lean [inaudible 00:40:15] is 5% beef?

Reece:                  It’s 5% fat.

Mark:                   Oh, 5% fat.

Reece:                  Because in the chicken, in the minces, you’re going to get your 5%, your 10%, and your regular. Regular, from what I’ve seen is about 17 grams. That’s a big jump. So that would mean I’d have to have less additional fats that I could add in.

Liam:                    Yeah. I personally find that a lot of people overeat fats. You know, they’re in those healthy treats, the cashew butter…

Reece:                  Hashtag keto.

Liam:                    Hashtag keto. Yeah I find a lot of people overeat their fats. When they start to calculate it all right down, what they’re actually eating, they tend to realize that they are overeating fats a lot. Now fat’s… Very dense calorie, and it adds up very quickly. The way I kind of structure my meal plans is I actually don’t get them… This is something that I always do, I actually don’t add coconut oil or olive oil, or anything to the pan. I actually spray it with coconut oil, because I don’t know how much I’m getting, and I like to keep it pretty consistent throughout, and that’s the way that I find best.

Reece:                  The tricky thing is when you do cook in fats, sometimes it can be hard to track, because it stays in the pan.

Liam:                    Correct.

Reece:                  And I don’t know anyone that licks the pan.

Mark:                   Yet. Operative word.

Liam:                    Yeah. So, if say, I came to you, Reece, your 15% body fat, and you want to get to five?

Reece:                  [inaudible 00:41:34] five?

Liam:                    I want to get to five.

Reece:                  Okay.

Liam:                    I want to get to shredded. I want to get to shredded shredded. I’m going to the Arnold Classic. How would you, in a rough way, puritize my food, and what would you give me? How would you set it out for me?

Reece:                  Yeah, well, like we keep talking about the calorie mountain, as the mark is dubbed, basically, I’d look at where you currently are, you’d probably be under eating. And then I’d look at increasing your food over time, until we get up to the point where you start to, for lack of a better word, tip over… Spill over.

Mark:                   Spill over. Become smooth.

Reece:                  And then we’d look at adjusting from there, and technically coming back down the mountain. Obviously including refeeds and things like that to make sure that you’re able to perform at the level that you need to. But, yeah definitely adjusting the calories up and down throughout that process.

Liam:                    Do you do your measurements weekly or?

Reece:                  Yeah, I love to do measurements weekly. I used to do it, when I first started, monthly. Way too long. A lot can happen in that time. And then the problem with having a long time span where things can happen is, the plan may have worked, and it may work, but it’s a case of that client got a bit distracted, they may have had a meal out, and now that plan appears, it’s a false negative. It appears that it hasn’t worked, so by checking in more frequently I found that it’s a lot more accurate, and it’s easier for the client to stick to it, they’re like, “You mean I just need to stick to this for seven days?” It’s a much more achievable chunk. It’s kind of like, you can’t eat an elephant in one bite. You need to chunk it. So it makes it a lot more achievable for the client.

Mark:                   Have you ever ate an elephant?

Mark:                   Sorry, continue.

Reece:                  Was that a joke, Mark?

Mark:                   That was, it was a bad one.

Liam:                    I didn’t get it.

Mark:                   I mean because you said, “You can’t eat an elephant.” It’s like, it’s such a… I don’t know, it’s one of those sayings.

Reece:                  It’s a metaphor.

Mark:                   It’s like, “Well you want to have your cake and eat it too?” Well what else would I do with cake… Apart from eat it, what do you want me to throw it at you? I can throw it at you, but, sure why not. You know what I mean? Like, you can’t eat an elephant in one bite. Well no shit, Sherlock. But have you ever eaten an elephant? No, you haven’t. So… Anyway.

Reece:                  That’s a fair statement.

Mark:                   Yeah, it is a fair statement. I just like to examine where these things come from. But anyway, as we were saying, does that answer your question?

Liam:                    Yeah, yeah it does. I like what you said there, Reece. I think with my starting points, when people come in to see me, I either, if they’re for fat loss, and they have been overeating, they’ve got quite a lot of body fat, I’ll start them at about minus 30% and I’ll…

Mark:                   They’re on to us.

Liam:                    They’re on to you.

Mark:                   They’re on to me.

Liam:                    They’re coming for you.

Mark:                   They’re coming.

Liam:                    I start them at minus 30%, so I start them in a bit of a deficit. For most other people, I actually try to get them to baseline as quick as possible. Do you do anything different?

Mark:                   So say that again, right? So who are you starting in at 30% deficit?

Liam:                    For the guys that are quite overweight. I mean this is person dependent, this is not what I always do. I really… I try to collect as much data, and I use…

Mark:                   So define quite overweight, just to get some, kind of…

Reece:                  Yeah, what kind of body fat are we talking?

Liam:                    We’re talking 25, 35…

Reece:                  So 20 plus.

Liam:                    Yeah.

Mark:                   So someone who’s quite big. So that kinds of seems a little bit counter intuitive to me, because the people who are quite a bit overweight, often we’ve had a few examples here, Helen was a great example, that Tyler did, she was at 100 kilos, and you know, now she’s 60 kilos. But she was under eating. Not sleeping very much, so there’s a lot of lifestyle issues that were getting in her way as well. So you wouldn’t necessarily start someone like that at a deficit?

Liam:                    No, this is what I mean, this is not everyone, and this about collecting the data.

Mark:                   So it’s overweight people who are…

Liam:                    Really overeating.

Mark:                   And they’re overeating. So it’s overweight and overeating. Not just overweight.

Liam:                    Yes.

Reece:                  So their diet that they bring to you is, you know…

Liam:                    Pizzas, and…

Reece:                  Burger for breakfast and pizza for lunch, and…

Liam:                    Yeah, like quite high food. So I’ll start them a little bit lower, and I’ll basically start working on their sleep, stress, and digestion. How my people that really want a good result, I try to get them to baseline as quick as possible. I mean, this all depends on the individual, but it’s what really works for me. For me, it’s about establishing the starting point, and I kinda of work out a rough baseline, I use very simple foods, I always use the same amounts, and I basically vary it, and I’ll work out their protein and I’ll kind of…

Mark:                   So how do you define on baseline? How do you get to your baseline?

Reece:                  Yeah, how do you sort of calculate these calories should I say?

Liam:                    Well I use basically the spreadsheet, the spreadsheet’s where the magic happens. Basically what it-

Reece:                  Is this the Leann Fitzgerald spreadsheet?

Liam:                    You’ve got it as well. It’s one that we’ve kind of worked on over the years I guess. Well you don’t like macros, though.

Mark:                   Well I-

Liam:                    I just, for me it’s a good starting point. I know, it’s not-

Mark:                   I like to see people’s food logs. I like to see what they’re actually doing.

Liam:                    Yeah, correct. And if someone’s eating [inaudible 00:46:23] meals, look, it’s… They’re not going to be anywhere near baseline. They’re not going to be anywhere near 30%. Minus 30%. So this is all dependent. But-

Reece:                  So for them it’s actually an increase in food.

Liam:                    But this is my ideal. So where was I?

Mark:                   How do you figure out the baseline?

Liam:                    Yes. So I basically use a formula. And I basically… Now I use two formulas, and I get the average. I [inaudible 00:46:42] calculate their physical activity levels, which is quite low for some people. And I think is… A big part of why people can’t drop body fat in the first place, because what happens is, we get up, we sit on the tram, or we drive to work, we sit a desk all day, then we go home, we watch TV, and then we go to bed. And when I get people to try and increase their steps, and I’m like, “Hey, well just do 5,000 steps.”

Mark:                   [inaudible 00:47:06] Big on the steps?

Liam:                    Yeah, I think it’s quite a good tool, and I mean it just depends on the person. If they’re strong as hell, do they need to really do steps? Probably not. But, for-

Mark:                   If I was your client would I be doing steps?

Liam:                    You’d probably need to do a few, yeah. Nah you… Yeah… [inaudible 00:47:27].

Reece:                  I think steps is something that… It’s another tool. So to say it needs to be used for everyone, I think some people can get away with it. I’ve got a guy at the moment and he’s… Does four or five thousand steps but he’s getting leaner. So, it’s a tool I haven’t had to use. He’s getting ready for a comp. If I need to increase it, I’ve got plenty of room to move now.

Liam:                    And I’ll use Jana, for example, one of my clients who won a comp. I was trying to get her to do the lowest volume. Like she was doing four to six reps. She wasn’t entirely strong, but, she would just get shredded off anything. And I’m like, no. We want to try and gain a little bit of muscle mass. I was trying to get her fatter into the comp. I was trying to get her bigger. I was trying… I was actually getting her to try and put on weight. So I was trying to get her to do the least amount possible. I was trying to get her to eat the most. But, again, this is… That’s not the every day average day person.

Reece:                  Because with Jana, for instance, if she was to do more steps, she would have to eat more, and…

Liam:                    She just couldn’t physically [crosstalk 00:48:20]. She was having 3,300. She was having like, 65 grams of maple syrup in her post workout meal with rice and… I was like checking with her daily, going, “Can we squeeze a little bit more in?” She’d be like, “I’m pretty full, I don’t know.” I’d be like, “Let’s try and do it anyway.” Let’s just…

Reece:                  Yeah you have to be creative when it gets like that.

Mark:                   Yeah.

Reece:                  More liquids and things like that.

Liam:                    Yeah.

Mark:                   [inaudible 00:48:41] Where do you go?

Liam:                    Correct.

Mark:                   You go to liquids.

Liam:                    And they’re the best types. And I remember an old [crosstalk 00:48:46] John, he was a true ectomorph. He was shredded to the bone, like, people wish they had his body year round. Kinda like Adrian’s client as well.

Mark:                   Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember him.

Liam:                    He would actually, I would check his weight in the morning, and I’d check it at night, and it dropped by three kilos overnight, or two kilos overnight, and I was like, “How is this guy dropping two kilos overnight?”

Reece:                  And then you get the freaks that are dropping weight as the day goes on.

Liam:                    Yeah, and I was like, “Why is this guy…” Yeah, 100%. And I was like, “This guy, how is he dropping weight?” He was on 4,400 calories… Like a ridiculous amount of food, and this is an uncomfortable amount of food.

Mark:                   [inaudible 00:49:22] He competed?

Liam:                    No, he was riding his bike.

Mark:                   Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember.

Liam:                    He would’ve been… He would’ve done sort of well in fitness, which is what we’re going for…

Mark:                   Yeah he was shredded, I remember this guy. Yeah, yeah.

Liam:                    So he was eating-

Mark:                   Shout out to John, if you’re watching.

Liam:                    Yeah.

Mark:                   Come back.

Liam:                    He was eating… Yeah, definitely come back. We need you to win.

Liam:                    Yeah he was eating 4,000 calories, I built him up to 5,000, and he was still dropping weight. I’d take his weight, [inaudible 00:49:51] when we take weight at night, and I was taking at night, and it was like, 77.8, and then he’d wake up 75, and I was like, “god damn it. This guy’s eating an uncomfortable amount of food.” And I’ve eaten 5,000 calories before, and I was… I couldn’t even move. I was falling asleep, I was feeling sick, it was very uncomfortable.

Liam:                    This guy was just chomping it down, and dropping weight. And I was going like, “My god.” And I ended up giving him PeptoPro at night, which is like a casein, so he wouldn’t lose weight at night. And I was just thinking like, “How does this guy drop this weight?” And this is what I mean about everyone’s case is unique.

Mark:                   Context.

Liam:                    Yes.

Mark:                   [inaudible 00:50:30] What I said at the start, it’s… You have to put that content, context in place of who are you actually advising.

Liam:                    Correct.

Mark:                   What are they actually doing? Because you can’t divorce the two. You can’t divorce context from contents. Because the example gave for John, for example, wouldn’t work for me. It wouldn’t work for 99% of people. So, you have to realize that you know, you don’t get protein powders at night because you wake up fatter, fatty.

Liam:                    Yeah, and I agree with what you said about the foundations, Mark, because the way I start my nutrition consults now, that they’re really the same. For a competitor, for fat loss client, for someone who needs to rebuild themselves up, it’s really the same, and it’s built off those foundations.

Mark:                   Well, I think this is a good place to have a break, we’ll be back. Thank you gentlemen. We’ll be back after this quick message from our sponsors.

Mark:                   Are you a person trainer looking to maximize their career and profits? Check out the folks at person trainer mentoring dot com, who have sponsored this show. They have put together a website full of resources, you can download one of them today. It’s a $500 value pack completely free as a watcher of the Wolf’s Den. It includes three e-books and an e-course on how to screen and assess your clients. So check them out. They also have some fantastic certification programs. The one they have just released, is Sales Mastery for Personal Trainers. So head over to personal trainer mentoring dot com, and get your free gift pack today.

Mark:                   Welcome back to the Wolf’s Den. Let’s get back into it. Liam, we… Reece over there has been in the toilet for probably [crosstalk 00:52:11].

Liam:                    45 minutes.

Mark:                   Yeah. How did the diarrhea go, Reece?

Reece:                  Well the great thing about diarrhea is it’s just like straight out. Are you going to add that in?

Mark:                   We’ll we’ve already just started so, let’s get straight into it. Thanks for letting us know.

Liam:                    What… So, lads. What are your thoughts on My Fitness Pal? Because, what I’ve seen, is like it’s a very good tool, but people tend to under or over calculate things.

Reece:                  There’s just so many options, isn’t there?

Liam:                    Yeah. So what are your thoughts about it? Because you use it?

Reece:                  Well, my… I definitely do use it, but I also educate my clients that there is a lot of options to pick from. Like you could type in apple for instance, and there’s five to ten different ones that you can choose of an apple. Obviously you’ve got different types of apples as well. So…

Liam:                    And on that topic as well, like I say, a banana goes through different stages of ripeness. So, the banana will actually change calorie density, so there’ll be different calories throughout the ripe age of a banana. So, people… That might be a 50 to 100 calories. That could throw someone’s plan out the window if you’re just making small changes.

Mark:                   Incrementally.

Liam:                    Yes.

Reece:                  So I guess this is where being consistent in your choice? Even if you’re making the wrong choice, being consistent in that. But also, just being mindful that you do want to cross reference and make sure you are picking the right option when you’re clicking on My Fitness Pal, and choosing that. Making that choice with the, I guess you could say the food icon? Not icon. What would you call it Liam?

Liam:                    I’m not too sure what you’re saying.

Mark:                   The food, when you’re selecting the food.

Reece:                  The food tab.

Mark:                   The food tab. You’ve got to pick the same one each time. So if you’re going to say-

Liam:                    Yeah, yeah, okay. So you always use the same beef 5 filet, or chicken, or and so forth.

Mark:                   Yeah.

Reece:                  Yeah.

Mark:                   So there’s consistency in what you’re picking.

Liam:                    Yeah. I’ve gotten one step forward with my plans, I try and make everything as simple as possible. So, say for carbs, for example, I’ll work out my foods in 50 or 30 gram servings, 30 grams, or 20 grams for fruit, 50 grams of carbs. So what that might look like it, is roughly estimated to 65 grams of rice. So when I give that it’s-

Reece:                  Is that raw or cooked rice though?

Liam:                    I do mine all in raw.

Reece:                  Okay.

Liam:                    So, the client knows what’s kind of coming. It’s 65 raw, and they can basically build on that. So there’s no new surprises. I’m not giving like-

Reece:                  What do you do if that’s too big a serve for a client?

Liam:                    I will halve it, but… Most of the people that I’ve seen can consume it. It works out to be basically 180 grams cooked. Most people can eat that in one meal. If you look at food volume, it’s not like 900 grams of food volume, it’s like 300, 400 with their protein, veg, whatever… Fats. It’s not a… They can definitely consume that much amount. That way, everything doesn’t really change. So I set my protein, I will [inaudible 00:55:09] leave it there for like, sixteen weeks, and I will change it if I need to, but from there on it really stays the same. So when I update my plans, it’ll stay the same with their… Throughout the whole way. And then I’ll just be changing certain amounts. Does that make sense?

Reece:                  Yeah, so, would you say that fats and carbs are going to change the most?

Liam:                    Yes. Yeah, 100%.

Reece:                  Jeez. I can’t even see you anymore.

Liam:                    This is so close.

Mark:                   So close.

Liam:                    Do I have to restart that?

Mark:                   No, he just wanted to be featured in the podcast that’s all. For those that are not watching on YouTube, so do make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube if you’re not watching on YouTube, but those who are not watching on YouTube, it’s just that our videographer walked in to fix Liam’s talking mouth.

Liam:                    I knew he was throwing me a bit, because I knew he was… I was like trying to [inaudible 00:56:00]with my eyes, and I was just seeing him getting closer to me, and I was like-

Mark:                   So question for you two, is there a way, because you guys kind of have a similar, and we all have a similar method of doing things, but at the same time, it’s also quite different. In terms of you two, like, do you see similarities in what you do, or are you very both different in terms of how you do things?

Liam:                    I think we’re similar, I think I try and get people to baseline quicker than what Reece does. Reece will take the slow approach and build them up. I think that’s one of the main differences. I like to use, I like to start my clients on [inaudible 00:56:33] FODMAP. Because I like to work out what works and what doesn’t work, and that’s a good way for me to do it.

Mark:                   That is a good way to do it.

Liam:                    So I start them off on the bare minimum, then I basically build them up with food choices. And when they are getting the results, and I’ve got the buy in and I’ve got a bit of respect and they’re training hard, and if they want to add a few things in at the right time, they’re more than welcome to. And it works out better for me as well. Because if I’ve only got 12 weeks to get a certain result, look I’m not going to be wasting time figuring out if they can eat dairy, if they can consume burgers or whatnot. I’m bringing them back to the start. Anything that’d been hunted, gathered, plucked, or fished, and I’m building on it from there.

Mark:                   So, what I see with that, by the way, is just a real marriage of what I said again, at the start, which is the two sides of the fence of people saying it’s all about calories, it’s all about hormones. It’s actually, well it’s all about both. Let’s use a FODMAP diet, and let’s get your macros and calories done, calculated correctly, so that we’ve ticked box, yes you’re having the right macros and calories, and tick box, we’re not inflaming any shit. And, make sure we keep it that way.

Liam:                    Yeah, with that as well, like I’m not that low FODMAP should be everyone’s diet. Like…

Mark:                   But it’s the start of-

Liam:                    It’s a great start for some-

Mark:                   Starting point.

Liam:                    Who needs detox or something like that.

Mark:                   Are you careful with the fruits when you’re starting that low FODMAP?

Liam:                    Yeah, I am, like… Is a mushroom bad? Potentially not, no. Are peas bad? Well, depending on digestion, they can be. Can corn? Another one. Yes. If you look at like, elimination diets, like corn and things like that are in typical elimination diets. So I basically start them right back and build on it from there.

Liam:                    Typically I don’t give carbs in the morning.

Mark:                   I really like that, because you start with what you know, and then you draw out to what you don’t know.

Liam:                    Correct. Yeah, and it’s just a time thing for me. I like to work with a person, but I also like to see what works. And like, one, why I don’t like My Fitness Pal with things like that is because, if I give someone a plan and it’s very consistent, and they consistently stick to it for one to two weeks, they don’t know how their body’s responded. I can gather things like, what’s worked. So if they’ve got more energy, they’ve got more… They sleep better, they’re feeling better at work, they’re not having that drop. Whereas if they’re eating whatever they want, what is working and what’s not working? How do I draw the line on, okay meal one’s good. Is meal one good? Because I actually don’t know, because it’s been all over the place. So that’ where I like to keep my foods pretty consistent. And I just feel like I get a better buy in if…

Mark:                   What carbs are you [inaudible 00:59:07] clients to initially on the FODMAP plan?

Liam:                    So, I will send them a list, and I will send them the low FODMAP list, and I say let’s… This is what we’re starting on, it’s very basic, I want to know what works for you. So I want you to take notes on any foods that…

Mark:                   What are the basic carbs? Like rice? [inaudible 00:59:25]

Liam:                    Yeah, I use rice, I use certain potatoes, I use sweet potatoes.

Mark:                   Even though sweet potatoes is a FODMAP?

Liam:                    Yeah, I… The thing is, with digestion, I find that it’s not often the right foods that they’re eating or the wrong foods that… It’s normally something else.

Mark:                   Such as?

Liam:                    Dairy. Gluten.

Mark:                   I see.

Liam:                    Harder to digest products. And if-

Mark:                   Too much protein.

Liam:                    Yeah. Ad if I give them say, sweet potato, which I really like sweet potato, so I give a lot of sweet potato, and that’s not working with them, when everything else has been consistent, that’s a real easy fix. Because guess what, I just remove the sweet potato, I put something else in. Generally my starters are rice, I prefer red rice, black rice, I use a bit of brown, but a lot of people kind of handle it, sometimes white rice as well. I use a bit of quinoa, and these are all in about 50 gram serves. I also do, I like to chuck fruits in, as well.

Reece:                  50 grams macro that is, yeah?

Liam:                    Yes. I also do like to use fruits, because me personally, I find that the more starchy potatoes, rice, things like that, I find it gets a little bit boring. And I don’t want to be taking out any food groups if I don’t have to. Because I find there is a lot of benefits to pineapples, berries, at the right times. Yeah. And I think it’s… It is about building on those thing, on the basic principles.

Mark:                   Now Reece, what do you do? Is anything different? Is the starting point to that?

Liam:                    [crosstalk 01:00:54] Are we different?

Reece:                  I’m the same as Liam, I keep it very simple. And, at the end of the day it does come back to consistency, because if they’re not consistent, then it’s very hard to make a change like you said before about the blindfold. So, it’s… If they keep changing things, and not being consistent it’s like blindfolding me.

Mark:                   Liam wanted me to ask, why is it that he gets better transformations than you? You guys are basically doing the same thing. You said that before- [crosstalk 01:01:20]

Liam:                    That is true. [crosstalk 01:01:20] Well I did, actually, yes. So Reece, why is that?

Reece:                  That’s debatable, and I think that sometimes-

Mark:                   I get the best transformations, yeah, I did, I agree with that. My… I put it up on my YouTube… My YouTube. My Instagram the other day, you saw it. You came to me, you’re like, “Man, they’re pretty good.”

Liam:                    Yeah but the thing was, it was only like 15. I’ve got at least 35.

Reece:                  Oh, oh, okay. Right.

Mark:                   35?

Reece:                  [crosstalk 01:01:47] 35?

Mark:                   I’m going to hold you to that, Liam. I want to see 35 transformations on your Instagram.

Reece:                  And I could pull out Monday. I could pull out 35.

Liam:                    I’m also-

Reece:                  Just FYI.

Liam:                    I’ve also been here the least. And that’s why-

Reece:                  [crosstalk 01:01:58] I want to see that, Liam. 35.

Mark:                   What do you mean you’ve been here the least? You’ve been here four or five years.

Liam:                    You’re the creator. You’ve been here since day one. I came in like a couple of years later. So, you guys should have more transformations. [inaudible 01:02:07]

Reece:                  You’ve just got beginner’s luck, my friend. He just doesn’t like a challenge. Eh?

Liam:                    Why don’t we… Let’s not live in the past, let’s live in the present. Let’s start from now, and let’s go for it. Let’s have a bit of a competition. Let’s see who can do this.

Mark:                   Sure, so what do we… We call in to our podcast listeners to reach out to me, Liam, and Reece? Email info at enterprise fitness dot com dot au, and yeah. Let us know if you want to be guinea pigs in our ploy to take on each other, and we can use your fat loss as our trophies of our superiority. And when I should say, our superiority, what I really mean is my superiority, of winning and beating these two guys. So, reach out. Info at enterprise fitness dot com dot au, and, or reach out to us on the socials, if you’re watching this. Leave a comment and say, “Hey. Pick me. I want to be on Team Reece, I want to be on Team Mark. And Team Liam.” Actually be a good indicator to see from the conversation [crosstalk 01:03:04] see who wants to be on each other’s teams.

Reece:                  I think three each is probably a good way to go, like nine people.

Liam:                    This is like war to me. I’ve got the hard hat on. And I’m ready to go. Like, let’s just do it-

Reece:                  You’d need a hard hat with that [inaudible 01:03:14] hair.

Mark:                   Yeah, he would. I’ve got a beard to protect me.

Reece:                  You’re well protected. While it lasts. I think I’ve got another year or two before I’m going to [crosstalk 01:03:22].

Mark:                   But you know what’ll end up happening. Reece will come to me and you and be like, “Look I’m having these issues with these things can you help me.” Like… Yeah.

Liam:                    [crosstalk 01:03:31] Help and you end up [inaudible 01:03:31]. What do you do Reece? When you structure someones nutrition? Do you give them a training day and a non-training day? Or, do you just give them a day, and you like run with it, or… Or what?

Reece:                  I’ve done both. In the past I definitely did more training and non-training. But, sometimes, what I find for most people is, it is about compliance. So, for some people, just giving them the same food every day can work really well. And it’s one of those things where, you don’t need to make it complex until it needs to be. So, like, why try to make it complicated from the beginning?

Liam:                    I know you like to keep it very structured. Do you get your clients to rotate foods? Like, obviously, keep them very consistent, like this white protein, there’s fish. Do you get them always eating the same thing, or do you try to get them to have as much variance as possible? Like spices, protein, veg?

Reece:                  I think that there’s definitely merit in more variety, and I definitely encourage variety, but at the same time, that person with that variety may be consistent, if that makes sense. Like for myself personally, I like rice and rice is [inaudible 01:04:35] for me, so I tend to have a lot of rice.

Mark:                   Happy days.

Reece:                  Yeah, so… It’s kind one of those things where, like unless it’s broken, why try to fix it?

Liam:                    Yeah.

Reece:                  So if someone’s getting results, they’re happy, I’m not going to try and change it on them and make it more complicated, again, than it needs to be.

Liam:                    What are your favorite supplements at the moment for fat loss?

Reece:                  The fundamentals. Definitely starting with obviously magnesium, multi, and fish oil, is usually my go to. Or curcumin. And then, typically, it depends on their digestion and their sleep, so you might look at things for digestion and sleep, depending on how they’re going. Because, ultimately if they’re not sleeping, their not going to be recovering that well, so…

Mark:                   Absolutely.

Reece:                  And if they’re not assimilating their food, then that’s going to affect their recovery also, and their performance. So, making sure they’re digesting their food.

Mark:                   You Liam?

Liam:                    Yeah, I think like, a lot of people look at supplements as like, pre-workouts, protein powders, and…

Mark:                   Well I would say… Supplements are not pre-workouts, protein powders or fat burners.

Liam:                    Yeah.

Mark:                   What they are, is vitamins, minerals, amino acids.

Liam:                    Yeah. I think for the best result possible, we’re not, I’m not looking at pre-workouts. I’m looking at how I can optimize their sleep, stress, and digestion like Reece said. But these supplements aren’t just a magic pill, and supplement is… They are for to supplement good nutrition. So I think like, they can be utilized better to get more nutrients in and do things like that.

Mark:                   Well it depends what’s going on as well.

Liam:                    Correct.

Mark:                   You know, is it their digestion, so their proteolytic enzymes can work very very well, is it their sleep, you know, you give them something to help wind down at night. But you really gotta pinpoint what is the missing link in the armor to then supplement with.

Liam:                    [crosstalk 01:06:28] Yeah.

Mark:                   Anxiety, because then things are like, you know, if it’s mental stuff. Then you know, Inositol 500 [inaudible 01:06:36],

Liam:                    Yeah, [inaudible 01:06:35].

Mark:                   Or is it just the fact that their partner snores at night and wakes them up? Well that could be an issue too.

Liam:                    Does your partner snore?

Mark:                   Brendan. This his partner. Yes. Anyway, we like Brendan, if you’re watching, Brendan, you should come say, “Hi.” But anyway, lets get into one of my favorite things to do, which is play a game. I feel like there should be music for this going, “Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.” And maybe our producer will give us some music for this segment. Maybe? Let’s see.

Mark:                   So, we are going to play the One Word game. And if you haven’t watched this show before, the One Word game is where we say a word, and we say the first thing that comes to mind. Now that there’s three of us, I will start. I will say a word, and Reece will say something, Liam will say something, then Liam will say a word, and Reece and I will say something, and then Reece will say word.

Mark:                   So, and even with the word that we’re going to say, it’s going to be the first thing that comes to mind. So, as today’s topic is, what is the optimal diet for body composition, I’m going to start with the word optimal.

Liam:                    Healthy.

Reece:                  Performance.

Liam:                    Me?

Mark:                   You need to say a word now.

Liam:                    Oh. Fitness competitions.

Mark:                   Bikinis.

Reece:                  Fitness and figure.

Liam:                    It’s back to you.

Mark:                   Your topic, Reece?

Reece:                  My topic… Mexican food.

Mark:                   Taco Bell. Taco Bell, even though it sucks.

Reece:                  [crosstalk 01:08:09] Taco Bell?

Mark:                   So, it doesn’t really suck, it’s just, it’s quite old. I’d say Fonda. Fonda is where I’d get my Mexican.

Reece:                  No, Mexicali Rose, if they’re still around.

Liam:                    Actually, I have never, I went to Fonda once, and I just… I don’t know it didn’t sit well with me.

Reece:                  [crosstalk 01:08:22] They’re trying to be too modern.

Mark:                   But they’ve changed their menu too many times. I felt like they were on a high, and now they’re like…

Reece:                  It’s too modern. Who puts quinoa in Mexican?

Mark:                   That’s true. Who puts quinoa in Mexican?

Liam:                    Do you use quinoa?

Reece:                  Not a lot. I have in the past. But not a lot.

Liam:                    Yeah.

Reece:                  You’re up again?

Mark:                   Diet. Hashtag Keto.

Liam:                    Diet breaks.

Reece:                  Short term.

Mark:                   If it fits your macros.

Reece:                  No no, that was short term. For, like you said diet, I said short term. It is short term.

Mark:                   It is short term. Diets are short term. Absolutely. Yes.

Liam:                    James Alexander Kelly.

Mark:                   Aw yes.

Reece:                  [inaudible 01:09:08] Great soccer player. My favorite pom.

Liam:                    You wouldn’t know too many poms though, would you?

Reece:                  That’s exactly right. That’s why he’s my favorite pom.

Liam:                    Oh actually Laura is a pom.

Reece:                  No she’s not, actually.

Liam:                    Isn’t she?

Reece:                  No, she’s, she was born in Belgium, so technically she’s not a pom. So i can say my favorite pom, because, you know, is the only pom I know at the moment, yeah.

Mark:                   Best coffee?

Reece:                  Oh, on Swan Street, it would be Jason’s, who’s just across, like two doors down from us. First Press, Cold Press. It’s a… shout out. That’s probably it for now, because I don’t drink much coffee. Drink very small amounts.

Liam:                    I like Joe’s down the road, it’s good.

Reece:                  That’s Mr. Joe’s isn’t it?

Liam:                    Mr. Joe’s, yup.

Reece:                  Jeez give a proper plug, Liam.

Liam:                    Ah sure, I still called him by name.

Reece:                  Is he the guy that owns it?

Liam:                    I don’t know.

Reece:                  There’s usually a lady in there.

Liam:                    Yeah, but you know what? She’s very nice.

Reece:                  And they’re like, Japanese. So they’re certainly not a Joe.

Liam:                    Well I’m not picking names for these buildings around Swan Street, it just says it on the door, so I said it.

Reece:                  [inaudible 01:10:08] a bit closer.

Liam:                    Favorite transformation?

Mark:                   [inaudible 01:10:15] Transformation… Well it was… Actually you go first.

Reece:                  Oh, I’ve got a few.

Liam:                    He’s trying to think of ones that he hasn’t got.

Reece:                  Yeah, who’s that?

Liam:                    Just stirring you up.

Reece:                  Who me, or him?

Mark:                   I’ve got a few. I’ve got Sean, I’ve got Kirsten, I’ve got Kate. They’re probably the three first ones that come to mind. Transformations for me would be, Kareem Albash, would definitely be on there. He got a pretty amazing result. He competed before, and then he competed, and I coached him for that next one. And yeah, his results were outstanding. Like truly outstanding.

Liam:                    So you compared a comp prep on the day of your show, to his next show? Is that what you… What you’re saying? Like so you had… Because, like older people say that they gain all the weight, or they do this they do that, but really what’s comparable is the same [crosstalk 01:11:05].

Mark:                   The look. The look. And actually to be fair [inaudible 01:11:08], his prior comp photos, he didn’t really have that great of comp prep photos, but he basically said he wanted to do a photo with a… Photo shoot with Jason Ellis, I think his name is. And, he was a photographer in the States who was going over there for the WBFF World Championship. He did very very well. He didn’t win, but he did extraordinarily well, and just the photos I think, that we got back, from the way he looked, were amazing.

Mark:                   And I mean he did look amazing. He was shredded, man. He was shredded. He did very well. So, he’d definitely be up there in terms of one of my favorite transformations, because he looked… He came, in, you know he didn’t look bad, he wasn’t you know fat or anything…

Reece:                  Just a kind of in shape guy.

Mark:                   He’s… Yeah. He’s just regular kind of you know, shaped guy. You know?

Liam:                    [inaudible 01:11:52] The harder transformations where you can only gain like, one to two hundred grams of muscle mass per month almost.

Mark:                   That’s why for me that one really stands out, is because I was already working with someone who was pretty good. He was pretty good. And to have the result that we did with him, I think, is… it speaks merit for the method that I use.

Reece:                  What’s your guys’ thoughts on aliens? Do you think there’s like… More out there?

Mark:                   You know what’s interesting about this, was, I heard actually, probably, on another podcast, that, octopuses, or octopi, potentially could be an alien species. That… Because if you look at octopuses, there’s nothing else on the planet that resembles an octopus. There’s no other animal that does what an octopus does, in terms of the way… Because, each tentacle can operate as it’s own tentacle. I think that’s fascinating.

Reece:                  So if you chopped it off it would still survive?

Mark:                   No, because chopping it off from the source I believe. But in terms of each tentacle is… Almost has a brain, from what my understanding… I’m not an expert, right? In octopuses, but, that… It is quite… When you look at an octopus, think about it. It does look very unique. But, is there an alien species? Well, I mean, I think alien is… Really kind of a unique term, but is there like, extraterrestrial is probably how you…

Reece:                  Yeah that’s the intent, is there anything other than, you know, [crosstalk 01:13:13] out there.

Mark:                   I think it’s highly probable. In terms of you look at the galaxies. But would we ever see them in this lifetime in terms of how fast, you know, we can travel from one star to the other, in terms of, you know, solar systems and that kind of stuff. And you know, alien could actually just mean that there is another, you know, multidimensional, or multiverse earth somewhere, and they… People look completely like us, and they do exactly what we do. And there’s the… You know? So who knows, who knows? We don’t know the mysteries of the cosmos. We don’t-

Reece:                  It is fascinating though, isn’t it?

Mark:                   Absolutely.

Reece:                  So you’re not against it, but you’re not for it either?

Mark:                   I’m not against the idea, but I’m not for the idea. I wouldn’t get up and say, “There’s no such thing as aliens.” And I wouldn’t get up there and say, “There’s definitely aliens.” I’m quite agnostic at this point of… You know, my conversations around the interstellar and extraterrestrials.

Reece:                  What’s your thoughts, Liam?

Liam:                    I was just thinking about Stranger Things to be honest. I don’t really know what you guys are talking about.

Reece:                  Stranger Things on Netflix?

Liam:                    You guys just went on a bit of a rant for like 10 minutes, so I don’t, I just kind of lost it. Dropped out. But yes, Stranger Things on Netflix, I know Reece is into HBO, Chernobyl.

Reece:                  I still haven’t seen it though.

Mark:                   You haven’t seen it?

Reece:                  I haven’t seen it.

Mark:                   You can get it on iTunes? This sounds like an ad now. Like anyone seen Chernobyl? No, no. No.

Reece:                  I tried to get it on Fox, though, and I did the whole subscription thing, for 30 days, but, I still couldn’t get access. So… [inaudible 01:14:36] me.

Mark:                   Really? Hey so, One Word. Back to the One Word game, hey? What’s your favorite exercise?

Liam:                    My favorite exercise at the moment is definitely the hack squat. I just absolutely love it.

Reece:                  Bench press and barbell squats. I can’t pick one.

Mark:                   Why bench press? It is because you bench with me these days?

Reece:                  Well that’s definitely part of it. It’s just something that I feel like I’m making good progress at, and I’m enjoying it at the moment, and squats as well.

Liam:                    Who is the better bench presser out of the three of us? That should be a question.

Mark:                   What do you mean, who is the better-

Liam:                    Why don’t we do-

Mark:                   Why is this even a conversation?

Liam:                    I’ve got the perfect leaders for it. I’m good at it.

Mark:                   And you still suck. So what’s your best bench press?

Reece:                  Yeah, what is it?

Mark:                   It’s not very much. Nothing to write home about.

Liam:                    120, 130 [inaudible 01:15:22].

Mark:                   Yeah, he doesn’t even know. Oh I benched 120 [inaudible 01:15:28]… Look man, on a bench press, there’s a big difference between 120 and 130, I’m going to tell you.

Reece:                  And when you bench 130, you know.

Mark:                   Yeah, you know. Like, I benched 130, that’s what you say.

Liam:                    I’ll bench 100 for 15 reps.

Mark:                   Yeah but we didn’t ask reps, this isn’t a rep competition.

Liam:                    Or if we’re looking at like one [inaudible 01:15:41]rep, it jumps up like 200%, so… Probably be benching 180.

Mark:                   Well, no. There’s a different… I mean the people who are like, “I can bench 100 for 10 therefore I can bench 150.” That just doesn’t… The maths on that is not…

Liam:                    Yeah I know.

Mark:                   Like, you know, it’s a different beast, benching 150 than it is 100 reps at…

Liam:                    I know.

Mark:                   Yeah. So. Yeah. At the moment I’m actually quite enjoying dead lifts.

Reece:                  So yours is dead lifts?

Mark:                   Sorry?

Reece:                  Yours is dead lifts. That’s your exercise.

Mark:                   Yeah at the moment. Bench and deads, I’d have to say is…

Reece:                  Least favorite exercise then?

Mark:                   Good mornings. Fucking hate them.

Reece:                  Why do you hate them?

Mark:                   Because they’re uncomfortable, I don’t really connect with them that well.

Reece:                  Do you have them in your program at the moment?

Mark:                   I do have them, I use the safety bar squat, and I’ve just, I’ve tried a few different ways to make them, like… I don’t know. Find [crosstalk 01:16:35].

Reece:                  Have you tried wide stance?

Mark:                   Yeah, I’ve tried so many things with my good mornings, and I dunno, I just suck at them. It’s just a time thing, but, I just feel…

Reece:                  Feels really loose? Doesn’t it feel-

Mark:                   I don’t like… It makes me feel vulnerable. That’s probably why I need to do more of them. But especially even with the safety bar, [crosstalk 01:16:50].

Reece:                  Is it when Liam stands behind you when you’re doing them? Is that the issue?

Mark:                   That is the issue. That is the issue. What about you, Liam?

Liam:                    I don’t think I have a best…

Mark:                   You just love everything?

Liam:                    Yeah, I don’t know. [crosstalk 01:17:03]

Mark:                   That’s because he doesn’t really train that much.

Liam:                    I’m trying to think about it.

Reece:                  Thinking back to the last time you trained? [crosstalk 01:17:09]

Mark:                   Yeah, it was a couple months ago. No, he does train. Just not hard.

Liam:                    Yeah, I dunno. I dunno. I think just warm ups.

Mark:                   How’s the breathing going?

Reece:                  Well what’s an exercise you see people do that you’re like, “That’s just a stupid exercise?”

Reece:                  Last time you walked into a gym, and you’re just like…

Mark:                   I hate when, I don’t know why, but I just hate when I see things done like just…

Reece:                  So it’s how it’s done that bothers you?

Liam:                    Like, yeah. Like I saw, I was at another gym, I don’t know when it was, and I saw this old lady with her personal trainer, on one of those half bosu balls doing squats. But not full squats. Just stuff like that really annoys me.

Mark:                   So it’s just like insulting on so many levels.

Liam:                    Yeah and-

Mark:                   It’s like, you’re with a personal trainer, and you’re on a bosu ball, and you’re doing half squats.

Liam:                    And the guy… Like, had a [inaudible 01:17:54] check jumper on, and I was like, “Nah.”

Mark:                   Did he really?

Liam:                    Yeah. And I was like… And this poor girl, like, her feet were… They just…she just wasn’t structurally strong enough to be doing that. Just things like that. I just… Yeah. I think I… Personal training is very saturated. It’s actually very hard to be good at it. And I just think it’s… Yeah.

Mark:                   The funniest thing I’ve ever seen in a gym, is the gym manager checking how heavy the bands are, or how much resistance they provide, by sitting on the scales with the band under his feet, and pulling on it, to see how much it would reduce his weight.

Liam:                    What?

Mark:                   So… Just try to figure that out.

Reece:                  What? Is that… Really?

Mark:                   Yeah, true story.

Reece:                  Wow. Which gym, was it Perth?

Mark:                   Let’s not name names.

Reece:                  Let’s not name names. That’s a good, that’s a good thing, let’s not name names. Wow. That’s some next level shit. Next level shit.

Mark:                   Have you ever wondered how much resistance those bands give you?

Liam:                    They say on it, don’t they? Some of them say on it.

Mark:                   Yeah, well, yeah you can look it up and find…

Liam:                    But-

Mark:                   You know, they say, [inaudible 01:18:58] like Iron Edge, look up the bands, it says, you know, whatever pressure and blah, blah, blah.

Liam:                    Favorite program at the moment?

Reece:                  Depends on the client. That’s a tough one.

Liam:                    What are you running with at the moment? For your clients? Generally, your working patterns. You kind of using what’s working?

Mark:                   He does run in patterns.

Liam:                    Yeah.

Mark:                   Good old pattern patch for [inaudible 01:19:20]. Pattern name.

Liam:                    [crosstalk 01:19:22] Guys are in a program for years.

Mark:                   Hey Tyler, we’re having your program. Yes boss.

Reece:                  I really like descending reps. I just… Feels nice. And whenever I do it-

Mark:                   It does feel nice.

Reece:                  [crosstalk 01:19:34] reps, I always injure myself. I much prefer descending reps.

Mark:                   Yeah, well that makes sense. Because you get more tired, you’ve lifted heavier and then… Yeah. I like a lot of, like my go to’s, depending on whether it’s strength, bodybuilding, or hypertrophy or fat loss, but I’ll give you a few of my favorites, like, if it’s kind of a general, mid tier, intermediate, kind of client, say, who wants to build a little bit of mass, wants to get a bit stronger, I do like seven five three, seven five three wave loading. I really find that kind of is, almost a power… A power building kind of program, which hits kind of strength and bodybuilding. And for guys who are reasonable strong, and they’re going to, they need to lift heavy weight but they also need to train like a body builder, my go to is seven five three wave load for that.

Mark:                   I mean really I like to keep things simple. I do like the gym and body comp at the more advanced version, which is where you purialize like, 10 days of five reps, 10 days of four reps, 10 days of three reps, then you go back to ten days of five reps, tend days of four reps, ten days of three reps. As a system… And I’ve altered that system over time, a bunch of times, and do like, three. So there’s six days in cycle, and the way it works is you have Program A, chest and back, Program A legs, Program A arms, and then you have Program B chest and back, Program B, Program B arms. And basically what I do is, that let’s say for example we train A, is back squat, B would be front squat, so then we might train legs twice a week, but, on the given 10 day cycle. But you’re… By the time you’ve done the high bar, like you actually can train quite heavy on the front squat for example.

Mark:                   So, I really like that, and you know? I’m going to give a shout out to Gus Cook, who’s doing my programming, personally at the moment. He’s kept it, like from a power lifting perspective. He’s keeping it quite interesting for me, and you know, I definitely feel good with his structure of the way he puts things together. It’s quite, quite a… I’m not going to say different, but it’s just a, it’s a sound way. So I like his system too.

Reece:                  What’s yours Liam?

Liam:                    I kind of like calculating the maximum volume and basically working up to a high volume through weaker muscle groups. So I kind of… What I’m trialing at the moment that I like, say I’m working at a bikini competitor, not general pop, I’ll look at the… What do they need to improve on? And say their legs? Hams, quads? And I’ll basically build up on their reps using whole body workouts where I kind of really focus on the legs. Because what I find is with a lot of people that train hard, they can’t do an hour and twenty, and hour and thirty of solid legs. They start off really well, they start off smashing their barbell squats, by the end of it, their leg workouts aren’t as good, so, been trialing that at the moment. It’s… And I usually tain every muscle group three to five times.

Mark:                   A week?

Liam:                    Yeah. Yeah. But it’s not like a full leg session for example.

Mark:                   You’re just basing it off tonnage?

Liam:                    Yeah.

Mark:                   And lots and lots of volume?

Liam:                    Yeah.

Mark:                   Where’d you get this system from?

Liam:                    A few people kind of used this system, but like Mike Israetel, a few of these big hypertrophy guys. And I’ve kind of just dulled it down a little bit. Made it really simple. Yeah, try not to change the exercises too much, providing they’re still progressing. And I’ll basically run hypertrophy for about four weeks, then I’ll start to bring in strength phases until I’m ready to go with hypertrophy [crosstalk 01:23:08].

Mark:                   But you’re not really, you’re not really using enough load to damage the muscle and create a response, I mean what is the reps on that.

Liam:                    Well if you have a look at set… Well I do a different rep range. So I’ll be from like, six to eight, to maybe 20, throughout the week. And basically what I was doing originally was kind of like, say if I trained legs three days a week, there’d be maybe like 80 to 90 sets. This way I can build the sets up, without getting them too fatigued. So I can build the sets up to like…

Mark:                   So then from this you’d go back into a more hardcore kind of bodybuilding program?

Liam:                    Yeah, this is more… This is not for your general pop kind of wants to get strong. Which is 90% of people. That’s just what I’m liking personally.

Mark:                   Right. So you’d use it as a pre-phase to getting them to be able to handle more volume is what you’re saying.

Liam:                    Yes. Yeah, yeah. I’m basically building them up to be able to handle more. Yeah.

Mark:                   Right. I love how the One Word game turned into just, a conversation around things. That’s always the way.

Liam:                    Can you just cut our old word game and put it on top of this?

Mark:                   We could. That was good if you haven’t seen that, that’s a good clip. Were we did the One Word game. Well, gentlemen, are there any thoughts, things you want to share, final thoughts, no? Reece is good. Liam’s out. Well I probably think this is a good place to wrap things up and leave it.

Mark:                   Thank you. Thank you for watching. If you’ve made it this far, it’s been our honor to entertain and educate you for this past 90 minutes. If you are watching this on YouTube, do subscribe, and if you’ve enjoyed it, share it. Be a buddy, be a mate. Be a… Be an awesome person who’s watching this, and share it on all things that are social media. You can follow Liam at…

Liam:                    Liam Fits. Liam underscore Fits on Instagram.

Mark:                   And you can follow Reece at…

Reece:                  Reecey boy on Instagram.

Mark:                   Isn’t it like Reece spelt with three though?

Reece:                  Yeah, there’s three threes.

Liam:                    Just find him on my page.

Mark:                   So spell Reece with a three. Yeah, that’s probably the easiest way. And I’m on Instagram at Mark Ottobre, so you can follow me, and also follow Enterprise Fitness while you’re at it. And, yeah. As I said, share it, if you’ve enjoyed this, subscribe. And if you’re on iTunes, do leave us a review. They go a long way, and it’s much, much, much appreciated. We do look forward to sharing this content with you and having you a part of our audience.

Mark:                   And finally, I think there is a finally? Is there a finally? I don’t have anything else to say, I don’t think on this topic. No? No? Cheers?

Mark:                   Well, until next time folks, train hard, supplement smart, and eat well.


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